859:

I seriously don’t get how loli Kanako survived in B given the rework of B-D. She is seriously lacking in damage for both her LW and aoe even with support. This goes against the reworked definition for B tier where a unit can have a decent aoe and lw nuke given they are supported.
Her aoe also has bad breaks. She is merely a support bot.

because her support is that good that it allows her to stay in B. She has yang support up the ass, decent util, 8 def down. this character is never dropping'

Some notes that need updating:
Susak: “mostly still SS due to technicality” Not SS anymore
Zatori: “you use her as a aoe spell and lw nuke” Aoe was proven to be lacking in dmg leading to her downtier
H5 Letty: “if you doubled said numbers shed be ss This should be removed as it is far from being true now
A7 Luna: Her entire note about her being the best in D can be removed as she has finally risen

sure

858:

Based on ignoring killer values below 150, coldkou should be C (atrocious AoE AND LW off killer even with support capping her buffs, never nuked a single enemy off killer alone - hibi NEEDS to stop glazing this unit for duoing exclusively her own DS and coldguya DS
which are both designed exactly for her to work - if we tier exclusively on hyper shilled content, may as well put all Yang metal units two tiers higher)
Mima, NY Reimu, mumu, MV Miko (she only breaks 6/6 or 9/3) can go to B too

the problem here is there are too many characters in A with AoE killer below 150 who absolutely deserve to be in A - ebonk, gunko, exhatate, exkutaka, b3 shimmy... these characters shouldn't drop. I also don't know why mumu or mima are there.
anyways, we need a different system to finally get a way for coldkou to drop because she just can't rn unfortunately.

And if Lr Arm is not nuking newest EBL A3 with the tailor made swordswoman killer change, she may drop to B too

i dont know what you're expecting her to do on full res

On the other hand I think exyuuka has proven herself to tier in S - being able to work with nysen flawlessly is just that good - nysen is more picky than a good chunk of EX tier units
Remember we have units like sanmu who has 95% of her performance carried by Cz2 while exyuuka even can 4T solo old EBL and duo more modern DS than the bottom 5 S-tier units combined
(exsatono can’t even nuke on killer and likes to go fast to only breaks 6 while having few proper partners)

ex yuuka physically an not be S on the virtue that she requires specific other units with extreme rank ii to cover her aoe inconsistency, meaning she needs specific breakers/geng, so shes not S
same why a unit whos fast + has quick spam cant be S unless they have absurd overflow as they also need a specific geng
the tierlist doesnt tier off specific combos, so no
(also exyuuka has been dead for quite a bit actually)

also pink saki just continues to exceed expectations even on res content since her self setup is just that good and I think there is an argument for her to be EX- below MV Aya

in my experience using her she is tiered perfectly rn. she can be very strong and versatile but she does have her drawbacks and they are significant. she is very similar to cstroos i think except a bit harder to use. so i think current position is fine.

ill be honest i have not used saki yet at all, so i cant comment, her practical puts he rbehind cstroos. and she preforms about the same as cstroos when medi uses her. so for all intensive purposes shes slightly worse than cstroos.
If you are surprised shes preforming this well. it may be funny to say this but cstroos SHOULD preform straight better.

And although Cf1 Reimu is not spectacular, I still think maid yoshika has a lot of positive traits between damage and proper self setups that let her easily exceed, say, epic chimata

this character needs to prove herself to do anything beyond dying on g2 first to consider going up

for bl4 we, once again, dont look at specific duos like that nor that way, well known best duo from a numbers perspective (if you can pull it off) f1 mors + mvkari doesnt defacto mean that f1 mors is gonna go up because she buffs yukari to the sun. neither will a character like bl4 move
up JUST because she can prove she can buff specifically maidyoshika. speaking of maid yoshika. maidyoshika doesnt even lose that much by not having bl4 there specifically. meaning she can use other options like bunyo or mumi. proving that shes not limited to specific units like
how almost all of bl4s use case is limited to maidyoshika. its kinda said. but thats life. bl4 just has that shit of buffs in comparison to those two that despite having slightly better rank ii in modern stages the damage will even out. maidyoshika buffs were afterall, never that amazing

units like W5 Yuugi, W1 Suika, C3 Reimu, B3 Toyo, B3 Seiran have been overly reliant on youkai killer for killer range
However most modern DS has at least one non-youkai and not having another effective killer tag has been hurting them a lot
This coupled with the fact that they do need a good amount of support as a potential nuke and that they can’t nuke on eff only means that they just generally suck and should be lowered considerably
Not to mention that the weaker AoEs among them (W5 Yuugi is particularly terrible) have a good chance of not nuking even the youkai enemies with full support

Ig i see the point but i also don’t think the problem is that bad? Idk

Wuugi aoe is supposed to nuke with cs2 as per kuros last check
And this Is another character i don’t rlly use
But i think if we are going to be dropping characters for not having 3/3 on aoes… we have a lot of work to do
So i don’t think these characters should drop for that reason
If there is a reason for them to drop its being tied to eff dmg and having nothing to deal with res

857:

For W5 Yuugi, shouldn't the bottom nitpick be "Who Will Wuse Wuugi Win Wenty Wenty Wix" instead of "Wenty Wenty Wive"? I mean we're 8 months into 2026 already

...sure

856:

A15& Sanae to D. Most part of her kit is really bad. Her elements are extremely inconsistent, her killer is practically non-existent, her support is middling, and she has little to no debuff to make her worth using.
This is an extremely bad look as the tier below her have people like L80 Suwako, Lr Nitori, and L50ws Yukari at least doesn't mess up as bad as Sanae.

take your bundle deal too

855:

B5 Lunasa to D, I just don't see how she is better than Lr Nitori.

idk how you came to this conclusion when Lunasa can actually kill on killer and Nitori can't. Denied.

854:

An additional note for a6 sunny bc she has one of the most detailed anima in the game, like her anima isn't just the character jiggling around Im so shocked

maybe i will provide a link to that mod i made that makes a6 sunny a fightable boss in eosd. did you guys know i used to make touhou mods?

853:

MV Reimu to B. basically her AoE is poor and she has poor synergy with all relatively newer units
with Yang units, she must go first especially on T1 to break the burn inflicted on her p skill but only breaking 6/3, no party p skill and general lack of support outside of party accuracy make her basically a card launcher
with Yin units, her AoE can’t nuke since she lacks self buffs to make it nuke, and her LW and skill 2 are just useless for yin partners who also rarely benefit from party poison in skill 1
Her LW is not bad as a set up on gauge 3 especially with ofuda d cards but it’s long past days that it can nuke without support

yes. killed

852:

outdated notes:
f1shi notes comparing her to l10.1 is outdated as l10.1 has best in slots (lol)
a7a reimu has better bises too (debuffs especially with a 3 yang up 2 yang def down)
a7b reimu has better bises too now so prob need to change that singular cons to mixed issue ?

everything updated

851:

It is more of a curiosity, but as an owner of B3 Sagume, I have found her kind of underwhelming for a B tier compared to other B-tiers I own?
Her high potential LW damage only feels like it materializes about a third of the time if that, even when she has significant help, a reasonably good card and good buffs from other units, and is attacking into Moon/Metal, and she suffers from incredibly extreme SP issues
(she might have the worst SP upkeep and generation of any unit I use semi-regullarly, often gives L80Myon a serious run for her money in that regard).
She can easily go from 4 SP to 1-2 from a single AOE use against multiple enemies, and her shots kinda suck at getting it back for her LW plus 6 cooldown on her party SP skill.
Her AOE sometimes has decent damage, but it's soupiness really kills her breaking potential even with a relatively accessible (2P) para break (partly due to no skill para inflict so she has to rely on the 2 pre-spell), and her killer range is somewhat narrow.
Bullet weights mean almost half of the bullets are also Star, the element that shows up nowhere else in her kit, while both Metal lines have Specular, which I have seen hurt her more than help, and the Moon lines lack Youkai, her one wide killer,
and are stuck with Human/Inchling, which also isn't great and in my experience leaves her doing middling damage against even somewhat weak and debuffed foes.
Relatedly, her AOE breaks para, but inlines blind, and her solo breaks blind, but inlines para. Her buffing really feels like the only semi-consistent part of her kit in my time using her, even her barrier-restore abilities fall behind. Just figure she might be worth testing

the blind inflict is very easy to go around because you only need 4 breaks for azusa to instant break or inflict para to compensate
additionally her aoe damage, calc wise at least, is quite good and if she drops a loooooool of also people are dropping
ntm there are a ton in B that doesn't have the consistent killer that azusa/oto has
but yeah idt azusa or oto drops consistent aoe damage w/ anti and then additional support with decentish lw

850:

Opinion: Solo lastword characters should be capped to B instead of C as some of them still work in trios and are more useful than some characters in B. If the argument is that they are capped because they can't work in duos then why not open the door on the trios tiers? Food for thought.

there are simply more cases even outside of ds that having no spells and a lw trumps having usable spells and a lw. pretty much any ac stage. pretty much any ebl, etc. this game simply punishes st lws too much

849:

For the new site, I get it's standard convention, but it may be good to highlight whether it's the right side or left side that is the "higher in the list", just to be more clear, especially since many of the ordered tiers have multiple horizontal layers.

sure

No real need, but having the SS Border-based subtiers on the new site could be cool, as would more sub-tiers in the ordered tiers to help explain niches.

i want to do this eventually but i dont know how rn

On the new website, Please include the Nickname/Terminology glossary. New players may not know what "MVkari" or "fmors" mean in the notes. (Other stuff is like being clear on what different cards or things mentioned being used are.
Like the "Yukari Anthology Story Card", if that makes its way into a character's explanation, it should probably be by name or have an entry in the glossary)

sure

Likewise, reworking the Banners in the icons could be a good idea for a standalone site, but otherwise, the Banner key is needed, (and the page/section on the other resources would be great to port over too).

i dont really plan to continue anything with the banners as i consider them visual noise and we have a filter system now which should cover everything. as for other resources... will probably get to them

And a small niggle : For new players, maybe change names like "Lr1 Shinki" to "Lr1 Renko - Shinki" so it matches more with the names on global? Like, unfortunately unless you know Touhou, the only place a new player would find the names "Mima", "Shinki", "Mugetsu", and "Gengetsu" are from the pop-up spellcard/nature descriptions.

sure

The tier list is one of the best resources to a new player, and it does feel there are quite a few barriers to use until a newbie joins the discord and learns the lingo.
Also the fun comments from the spreadsheet kind of really are a part of the charm/vibe of the tier list, so I would like to see them be preserved/kept/expanded on the new site if possible.

they are not going away

848:

ex mamizou to mid S
her kit has too many issues including but not exclusive to needing 3p to do anything and yet severely lacks p, very late breaks and only breaks 3 on gauge 2, a low damage amplifier comparable to some A tier units, no res nuking capability
If she goes first and be the utility bot, her 7/3 breaks, accuracy spam and unfocused Yang buffs are pretty decent but not immediately SS worthy
Even BP Koishi has 7/3 breaks and party yang/accuracy on AoE but she has 2p poison break on AoE and 1p poison break on LW and thus somehow fewer p issues as a utility bot
Yet since most of her potential teammates all have at least one quick (nysen/nyshi even has 2) and she is not realistically outspending units with agi anoms, she is quite likely to go last and hope her partner(s) support her enough to do damage.
Even so, her practical damage is not trivially universal or consistent to finish any gauge when hitting only either eff or killer, which in some ways explains her lack of shillable content
her desperate need for p is known to negatively affect everyone’s card options and her choice of AoE (opting for the weaker AoE2 because it’s her only source of crit buffs and p)
Ultimately being just okayish in all roles even when given good cards and partners is very much not emblematic of SS

i think she still has ss qualities but whatever i dont want to defend this unit anymore

847:

Unless this affects phrumia’s tier, the note on her having a wide killer range is incorrect as her aoes hit 194 and her lw hits 206 on p0.

again this doesnt really change anything but.. note updated

846:

ph rumia should be lowered in SS simply by the fact that her killer range was overestimated and is important to her damage consistency
even with capped yin/agility, missing killer still hurts her damage a lot and yet her killer sets are just moderate throughout while explicitly requires externally support to do dest stuff

eh, her tiering is the same even with re-evaluated killer ranges. Her res damage on nlm only is still quite good and her sc1 kinda carries everything

845:

do the tier list mainly consider actual usage (results) or theoretical usage (calcs)?
for instance mvkasen AoE calcs indicate that it would be atrocious off killer while only having ~50% killer coverage including parapres - yet her results are stellar as she hits killers on way way more than 50% of DS
we also have a million Yang metal content that make nyshi/l0gnako/mvran look like the most broken group of units ever
while exmami has good numbers and better killer coverage but she has no remarkable results other than pairing with a perfectly aligned unit of the DS/EBL
if going by calcs, mvkasen would have a lot of reasons to be lower in EX until NN gives her FR 2.0 with the best anthology card in the game
if going by results, exmami could even be in A because someone like exyuuka has much more results everywhere
As a result, units with a lot of content or no content can be either heavily overrated or underrated depending on tiering philosophy and I would argue the current form of TL indicates that it juggles between both from unit to unit
A more standardised approach to units especially S or above would be much appreciated

The main thing is practicals. And by this i mean calcs that realistically hit minimum damage required for stages. Which is why units like exmami, mv kasen, most of s tier etc. Aren't punished THAT badly for having what is "low damage".
Since they largely actually buff themselves to reach the minimum damage required for content. (I do agree exmami should be lower tho) Nobody cares if you do 2 million or 20 so long as it kills. And for some reason modern units often have a 20 mil cap and then get 1.5 mil on average
because their buff is that shit or they have other in practice issues (like mv ran, who is JUST in practice issues)
Results are then only used to prove/provide counter arguments to this theoritical. We basically take an imagineary stage. See if the unit can farm it realistically. And then tier off that. If im wrong, and the unit is actually proven to farm stages of around that level.
Then the usage proved that the therotical was actually incorrect and they are infact consistent in what was attempted (such as getting x unit to aoe nuke)
When deemed consistent in a facet, wether it be aoe damage or lw damage or utility, it is assumed that you can preform the actions over and over again. So when a character has like an aoe damage problem because you just cant set up their aoe to actually nuke literally ever,
youll see that unit quickly go from SS to A/B tier. As was the case with like cz1.
As such, Ex tier is the tier of being universal in element as well as having universal elements across all content. Whether that be utility (cs2). Universal damage (spriko). A combination of both with some drawbacks (looshi) or everything in the game at once (lootori).
We can rightfully assume that these charaters are ex because theoritical tests and stages proved they meet the required minimums. And then in game usage and testing proved that correct. No its not raw calcs no its not raw usage. Its using usage to prove x is fine/isnt

844:

Hi, sorry, this is mostly just me asking questions. First of all, I pulled for Yukari's Ant Card and got 5 copies. How many should I just limit break now or how many should I throw in the cooking pot to stew for a couple of months.

you need 2 mlb so funnel all but 1 into one of them and shove them into the collection

Also, while I do agree that luck buffs shouldn't be counted for the list, is it safe to assume that if in theory, a seperate FES/L1/(Non-red Marisa) Yukkuri tier list was made for luck buffs, it would just be the same as clicking FES only in the search and just not much changing in the tier list?
If so, at least A6 Merlin would be close to top tier in one type of tier list. The one in my heart.

probably more or less the same

Anyway, new website looks great! :D

thanks!!

843:

F1 Marisa to SS. Based on the definition of EX tier: "Units of this caliber are universally proven useful and consistent inside their element. As well as outside their element to a reasonable extent..." she kinda doesn't fit considering that she struggles on contents outside of wood/star,
while at the same time she still needs to be babied in contents that favored her thanks to her meager self buffs and lack of debuffs, which is exacerbated by the lack of card options due to being Hard+Dest+Laser-DCard-that-is-for-Yang.

So one fundamental thing, f1 mors has a supportive role. And infact quite the good one. While she lacks acc she has the raw buffing and stored power to actually make up the gap of being forced to run an acc card, so you don't actually lose anything from that.
That is why she is deamed universal. Additionally her aoe nuke is one of the highest in game. Almost as high as cz2. So when she hits killer on her aoe in the same vein as spriko she will also be universal in that sense. There is holes in the logic.
Shes simply too slow, there can be issues with last gauge due to the weird buff situation. But theres no denying she does actually fit the ex tier definition. Unlike the two next closest; nysen who has multiple issues when being both the damage role and the support role.
she has such a specific kit that her damage role can only work with an entire one unit being lootori. And even still it has some issues if you cant kill first gauge properly (but who am ikidding its lootori+nysen it hasnt failed to kill before).
and her supportive role heavily relies on the damage bot giving her p as well as just generally being able to nuke with what is actually noteably below average damage amp on the starting gauges. Basically forcing the other unit to require high buffs to cover her 0.
Which is taken into account. And mvkari who simply doesnt have universal utility only and PURELY universal damage. Fmors comfortably gaps the both of them. (Also kinda funny that looshi has all these flaws being mentioned.)

L80 Kasen lower in EX. Genuinely, her numbers just aren't good especially with how her killer is narrow + the lack of good aoe damage, she needs extra buffs with how NN throws anomaly inflict at wave start making her attack anoms hard to utilize, and she lacks the heights to be a Geng alternative because of lacking utility.

we know her numbers are bad, we know her killer is narrow, her utility is bad. yet shes still SOMEHOW always proving shes ex through sheer bullshit. she is not lowering as no argument to make her lower counts for the fact she is about the only vs b3 myon duo (atleast at launch),
still nukes+duos vs musak, 12+5sp duos vs urumi. etc etc. shes SUPPOSED to be bad shes SUPPOSED to be a candidate for lowering. yet in practice the things that are supposed to be a huge issue for her like her low base numbers just..dont..matter.
And its absurd that they often dont matter. I wouldnt be surprised if the game is bugged and is increasing her damage when youre not looking at this point. But jokes aside, i would be fine with lowering her if all use cases of her still to this day didnt prove those aren't an issue.

842:

Re: Gengetsu, I hate to be mean but your response were just “generally a geng is OP” while addressing ZERO concerns I raised. tell me how is she supposed to save either her skill 2 or 3 on T1 without Cs2 or being 150 luck (who she also doesn’t synergise that well BTW because
Gengetsu AoE has nuked approximately zero DS despite debuff and break spam in the last year). tell me why she has notably more difficulty duoing with other non-OP yin units in modern yin DS, something every other yin units in EX have done
Fast multiple breaks WERE cool when there wasn’t approximately 10 units that break 7/7. her only viable modern usage is going first to break 7 and launch some cards which really do no justice to the so-called Swiss army flexibility description in the notes
She is just not that notably better than, say, muremi, who very definitely does something more than breaks

Thats because most of the concerns listed have been dealt with before. I can go into them if you want but its largely the same deal as then:
Forced skill 2 on t1. But the aoe gauges are the hardest and geng gives -2 def +6 crit +3 yin atk for the last gauge. On average you're killing regardless assumin g your other lastword is relevatively aligned. If this was solo nuking i'd understand. But it isnt. And thats before cards.
To put that into perspective, bunyo gives 1 def down 6 yin atk and 2 crit ii. which is less damage amp. mumi can be more than geng depending on where your damage is from. but to my knowledge she isnt either. Similar stuff. Even if you save their crit ii skills. Geng still gives enough to kill.
I honestly dont get this complaint. When was the last non ex or basically ex tier duo? The last few ds have been what i deam as mu flan shilling. Nobody really duod them. I guess mv remi did duo vs musak with cs2 but cant when geng? Idk i dont get this point duos with below the first two tiers are EXTREMELY rare.
The next two points are things we dont consider. so what if her niche is being more crowded? its still gengetsu, despite everything. Hence the point i made last time. The tierlist wont magically NOT value mvkasen because theres more stored powers for example.
Lastly, mumi lacks a lot of what makes gengetsu so consistent. A better comparison would be to bunyo whos largely a strict upgrade outside last gauge.
mumi has:no accuracy so she is forced to run an acc card on atleast one gauge unless her pairing has agi anoms. in which case while she can rely on the sure hit lines theres no means of letting her outspeed their last gauge to debuff for them so the last gaug unit basically HAS to be muflan or mvkari
somehow still has p issues.
has a lot of problems when being the damage role, kinda just requires cs2 for them with 0 other usable pairings.
If she was as good as cs2 and by extension bunyo at breaking. shed be ex. but she has these issues

841:

I think Gengetsu should be lower in EX. the combination of 3p break while having party 1p on resonance skill means she is almost always forced to toggle on skill 3 T1, making her support on last gauge extremely poor. Yes she can stack -8 def down with 50% card even when enemy is immune to burn/blind BUT her p0 killers are practically non-existent and the AoE has relatively low raw damage in general and does not have party p/barrier on AoE. Skill 2 is more difficult to save nowadays because her AoE pre-eff inflicts blind which is realistically only broken by Mima (who you don’t bring nowadays) and etoyo (on 3p and thus heavily limiting her AoE damage). Her support is decent between her skill 3, a Sun/light/party 4 Yin d card and a few buffs sprinkled here and there. However, the two 100% stored power units in EX have roughly similar, if not more support while still being able to AoE nuke occasionally without relying on eff. Cs2 gets to ignore her AoE damage issue because she has infinite party P, ridiculous amount of buffs, party 3 Yin ATK II for 3T and a few good cards to make up for it. Such are a luxury that Gengetsu doesn’t always get to afford. She is not bad by any means but her highs seem to be overestimated at the moment. Unless they delete all barriers from DS, she would be overshadowed by most of her colleagues in EX units who also has the means to be really amazing unlike Gengetsu who only has her consistency to boast in exchange of actual highs.

Cs2 is quite frankly a mid A tier if used in the damage role. Being a geng bot is simply that important inherently. Geng has a similar amount of buffs on average. Due to being able to take care of acc so they dont have to run an acc card. And otherwise the only difference is cs2 is just simply better in the last gauge and has a damage role as opposed to gengetsu have a very poor one. I dont get the complaint her aoe inflicts blind.,..just..break it? If youre aiming to not break it, by abusing def down, why have the complaint blind units are in a tough spot? Overall just..being a universal geng bot is simply that valuable these days. Her support is good enough to make it worth her going first due to not needing to take care of acc unlike cs2. And in general...being a geng is just that important tbh. Does it seem weird that despite being a worse cs2 (USUALLY) shes still where she is? Perhaps. But its just that valuable. For example. The stored power bots are great truly. But when have you required a stored power to make a real comp? You basically always require a geng equal in duos. So how does having stored power make one just as big of a requirement to comps? Just food for thought. Its a touchy and debatable subject in general.

840:

C3 Joon should be lower as other than her poison inflict n break she doesn't have much valuable to her kit. Unimpressive damage (too low) and imo her buffs and debuffs can be too little (it's not a lot) or just doesn't find some value in comps compared to other units. From her notes she is very replaceable and doesn't have any great value except only for her poison inflict and breaking. Her gimmick skill also sucks

i think B is perfect for Joon because there's no part of her kit that's particularly bad and she actually has decent potential to duo with nysen, but she doesn't excel at anything so she feels kinda mid in practice. but having 7 aoe break and pretty high util value prevents her from dropping since she at least has that role and it can be pretty good for trios/certain duos - certainly not worse than some of the other people in B right now (every generic lw nuke w/o an AoE)

839:

hii can you calc c3 mystia lw hitting eff/res with mima and muremi resonance, has 10 crit acc ii, has 10 yin atk ii, has 10 crit atk ii, and with 125% stored power, just curious because shes getting a buff

Uh... I think we'll do this after her buff is implemented. I'll make a follow up once that's out.

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